2005-04-21 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yeah... anyway, I had to make certain that people wouldn't ignore my message. And well, flaming anyone is bad even if you hate their guts... (Bill Clinton!!!!!!!!!!)

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: lol, that's my theology

2005-04-21 [Maurer's conclusions]: Yes, flaming is bad, but providing logical, rational and concise arguments isn't bad.

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: common sense, I'm glad people agree with me

2005-04-21 [Kyrinn]: You were arguing, and you were flaming, Ert. As was I, I am not blameless. and thats all I gotta say about it.

2005-04-21 [kduncan]: Kyrinn.. who was the one who said.. let's see "rat poo" and accused people of not doing research? Who was it that accused us of generalising people? Flea, who was it that said something to the effect that we never step foot in a library? Tiger Shark , you seem to think the media tells us to "hate Bush", well what about people who support Bush despite his lies and overall poor judegment (have you read the latest on Delay??). I was never "swayed" by the media into "hating" Bush, it was Bush's poor on-the-job performance that forced me to realise what a colosal loser he is.The only flaming here has been on the part of the Bush supporters, the only ones who have "raised their voices" in the 

2005-04-21 [kduncan]: form of capitalised text and abnormally large text have been Bush supporters. The only ones who have provided proof to their arguments have been Bush haters.. and the links we've provided have been backed/written/documented/etc by well known writers/PhD's/scientists.. not three jokers who put up a splash page to make money from their rather questionable porn links (ie:moorewatch) Can you provide anything a little more creditable? Flea said s/he would.. then failed to do so. Kyrinn questions everything we say.. but posts nothing in the way of proof. And we're to take their sad arguments seriously? Sorry, but tit-for-tat: I don't have to take what they say soley on their word just as they

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: okay, I'm just going to stay out of this now << >> way out of control

2005-04-21 [kduncan]: don't have to take what I say soley on my word. I've provided proofs of my arguments.. where's theirs?

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: listen, you want to argue, msg whoever privatly, we here don't want to hear it. unless it has nothing to do with flaming and uses polite conversational tone, LIKE DEBATES ARE TO HAVE, get out of here we don't want to hear it

2005-04-21 [Ylaraniala Majere]: For crying out loud, kduncan. He said he flamed. *rolls eyes* And also, who cares if they are PhDs or known writers? People can have their own well made opinions you know. And it's true, BOTH sides should show CREDIBLE evidence. Like not from Michael Moore or the official Bush website. Got it? Now quit giving each other hard times!!!!!!

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: *nods*

2005-04-21 [kduncan]: I get it.. if you have a more creditable site they why are yo ukeeping the moorewatch site up? And jeez louise.. in Kyrinn's last post s/he was still flaming. Sorry, but someone who can do nothing but insult, flame, but provide not one credible shred of proof as to what they claim.. I mean.. do you really want that type of person representing your group? And I'll remind you, it's impossible for one person to "gang up" on an entire wiki. It was actually the other way around, with Kyrinn and Flea using most of the insults and flaming. Maybe you ought to be banning a few of your own members. Ylaraniala.. have you actually looked at any of the sites I posted? You should do so.

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: this coming from someone who also flames

2005-04-21 [Tiger Shark]: I find that increadibly ironic, don't you?

2005-04-21 [Ylaraniala Majere]: I agree. And frankly Kduncan, you, Dilandau, and a few others WERE ganging up. And I would ban them but that would also make me ban YOU. I am giving people a second chance. You're failing so far. Second Kyrinn was NOT flaming that time, I checked. The MooreWatch is up in the thing for the members, NOT for the discussion. Got it?

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: Go ahead, Tiger Shark.. quote my flames.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: First of all, no I didn't organize a gang or anything like that. Several people who don't like bush just happened to watch the page at the time. The only person I kinda invited in was kduncan, because she knew alot about the oil thing. Kryinn was constantly saying we had no lives and said that we were all haters. If you go back and read the things..you'll see we're not trying to start anything. All we asked for was for a couple of links supporting your ideas so we can see where you're coming from. No one came in here with an intention of starting a flame war.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: If anything, they started insulting us first, yet we stayed on the facts and asked for some information about stuff. We're here to learn. All kduncan did was maybe a couple of sarcastic remarks..but it was only due to the original insults thrown.

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: Kyrinn didn't flame when s/he said, "You haters remind me of those commercials on TV, showing a bunch of ppl standing around a faucet that is on full blast, all talking big about how someone should do something about it. That is all you are doing in here, running your mouths, you seem to have an insult for everyone, and that makes you come across as juvenile BULLIES in a school yard." I'd call that an uncalled for flame. Pretty much all of the flaming going on here was done by Kyrinn and Flea.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *calms down* That was not the last thing he said was it? Now.

EVERYONE.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: I already said that. But apparently you didn't pay attention.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: And for your information, Bush Haters, I was directing that to EVERYONE not just you.

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: Actually, I'm asking someone to point out where I've flamed anyone personally.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: Eh? Kduncan ain't flaming she's just quoting someone.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: And I have about five lined up. BUT I want you to darned shut up about it and start over, okay? Jeez, I'm gone for a month and it goes to heck...

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: Go ahead.. direct quotes, please.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: NO. Alright? Unless you want to get kicked out don't ask for that anymore.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: Oh, so no one's going to quote kduncan?

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: NO, no one is. Simply because I want all flaming forgotten.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: Okay, so about those links. For the love off...that's all I asked for and nobody gives me any? Why?!

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *calms down* I don't know.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Thanks for not ^_________^

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: okay...whatever. Back to the debate. So what topic?

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: I will say it, _Dilandau_.. thay can ban me if they want to. There are no flames quoted because there were none on my part.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Not true. Now what was the last TRUE unresolved topic?

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: The last true unresolved topic is that Bush supporters won't post any proof of what they say, yet they disregard what we have said saying "where's the proof?" even though we've offered links. So.. where is your proof? We've shown some of ours (did you even glance at them?).. where's yours? And no.. television commercials don't count.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: KDuncan, you are hereby BANNED from this wiki.

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]: Condescending remarks are the same as flaming, kduncan. You decided I was ignorant, I recall you using that term a variety of times. And NO I am not going to quote you. If anyone wants to go back and read, do so. That said, I think this particular topic should stop. I was flaming too, and at least I admitted to it. Ok, [Ylaraniala Majere], Ive said my peace and I wont bring it up again. *grin*

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *nods* Make sure you don't, because I'm sick and tired of bringing you people into line...

2005-04-22 [kduncan]: mwaha.. told you they'd ban me. Though.. wait.. didn't Kyrinn just violate your proclaimation? Ok.. so I get banned.. and Kyrinn makes cutting remarks AFTER I'm banned. I see how this works.. exactly the same way the Bush rallies worked. For the record, this is why Ylaraniala ultimately banned me.. just so that there's no mistaking the reason. I said, "The last true unresolved topic is that Bush supporters won't post any proof of what they say, yet they disregard what we have said saying "where's the proof?" even though we've offered links. So.. where is your proof? We've shown some of ours (did you even glance at them?).. where's yours? And no.. television commercials don't count."

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yeah because you were flaming the members.

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]: I will leave if I have to, becuase I know what I did was wrong and against the rules. If I am asked to leave I will understand and still support Bush, thank you very much. ^^

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: No, you made a remark and I forgave you [kduncan]. Same went for Kyrinn. Now LEAVE. *glares*

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: Damnit, And I reassured kduncan she wouldn't be banned. Why'd she get banned anyways?? Can you quote? Wait who just got banned, kduncan and kyrinn..because if you banned kduncan and not kyrinn..it's a double standard wiki.

2005-04-22 [Tiger Shark]: read what I just sent you, you might find why I hate people like you.

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]: [kduncan], do us all a favor and leave please. You were told to, have the grace to just leave. Thanks.

2005-04-22 [Tiger Shark]: well he's been gone for a while now

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]:

Go away.

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]: Also, Tiger sent you that message instead of posting it here. That was very good of her to do that. But then you had to drag it back into here. That was rather.. well... I cant really say, because I am not going to waste the effort to flame. I have to agree with her. I dont much like you, and doubt that will change. So, after filling up this page after being told to leave, I think we would all appreciate you actually LEAVING. ^^

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Well I just had a merry time of deleting all the banned member posts... I'll have to edit the rules so that I don't have to have the rules interfere with my job anymore. Also, I just checked and made sure that I did NOT do a double standard. Kyrinn has a warning. Next crossing of the line means he's out. Just like kduncan had.

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]: Ill keep a low profile for a while then, miss Ylaraniala. I appologize for all I did, and I wont do it again, even if provoked. 

2005-04-22 [Kyrinn]: And actually I am a SHE, not a he.. ^^

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *blinks* sorry Kyrinn. And you can talk, just don't violate the rules. ^_^

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: WHAT did kduncan do to get banned exactly? If Kduncan said something offensive, it was mostly provoked, You can't blame someone for coming back and defending themselves if people want to go bash that particular person who got kicked out of spite. 

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *looks at Dilandau coldly* Rule #2, and Rule #1.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: It was a debate.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: It was NOT a debate. Leave it.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: It was, we were talking about bush. We were expressing our view of why we dislike him. Then Kduncan pointed out the fact that nobody wanted to debate with us, because nobody seemed to have any factual proof defending their ideas. Which is slightly frustrating, but that's the basic idea of the last thing kduncan said.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: We can't have an actual debate if one side won't provide any links, facts, books, or resources. And a counter arguement of "I have a life, and you don't" doesn't really cut it.

2005-04-22 [Ylaraniala Majere]: No, it wasn't. DROP IT, I made my decision and I really don't want to talk about it because frankly, I'm feeling crappy about banning her.

2005-04-22 [Dil*]: Fine, I'll come back to this later. In the mean time...

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: So.. it's also a practice of Bush supporters to avoid anything they don't want to hear. You heard it from them first folks. Avoidance.. that's how they deal with their problems. Bush immediately following 911: ""Go to Disneyworld." I'll just assume that you're a little more than a little embarrassed about your members rather toxic letter.. it really sort of showed what Bushies are like. didn't it? And it showed how ignorant they are about simple facts, like how much the war in Iraq is costing.. which Tiger Shark described as being in the millions. (It's actually in the Billions.. with a "B") I told Tiger Shark that I wold only address future emails in this forum.. and I don't lie.. when

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: Tiger Shark sent that rather hate-filled email, I did as I said I would do.. and posted it, along with my response here. The wiki owner deleted it. I supported my statments in my message response with links (did anyone here actually look at them?).. which now no one can see because, well.. the wiki owner deleted them. 

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: And Kyrinn.. regards your remark that there is an "unlimited supply" of oil in the AANWR.. do you realise that every single geologist and geophysicist in the world would disagree with that statement? Look up Hubbert's Peak.

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: Ylaraniala..look at rules number 1 and 2 up there.. and look further back in your wiki than when I started posting. Your members have been absulutely vicious in flaming not only Bush opposers, but the Democratic party, Democrats, the former first lady, Clinton.. and yet they weren't banned previously.. nor even reprimanded. Yes, I've read further back than you think. I read back before the last presidential election. Your members have been rude, made unsubstantiated, inflammatory statements.. and it's been tolerated. This wiki is a sad sham, it's a badly censored page that represents a very lopsided point of view because you have deleted posts. If you can't allow the entire truth to be

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: seen in this wiki.. then it shouldn't be permitted to continue at all. Censorship.. in any form.. is a dark, evil thing. If you are true to the truth.. you will delete all the posts from your own members in which they have bashed anything else: Democrats, Clinton, liberals, Michael Moore, and anti-Bush people.

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: Pearls of wisdom from Bush supporters: Kyrinn: "Am I supposed to take your word for it that it's a good thing?" (Posted in reference to EO 12598) No, that's why you look it up. EO 12598 is a very good thing. I was familiar with the text, but not the exact number because, frankly, there are thousands of EO's .. and I looked up the number. (Yes, despite your claim that they don't make EO's available for all the world to see.. they do.. mostly because of EO 12598.) Kyrinn: "Clinton was a LAME DUCK president" Hon.. so is Bush. Do you actually know what a lame duck president is? farfy girl: "Clinton was the first pres to be officially impeached" um.. no.. he wasn't. Ylaraniala: "And also,

2005-04-23 [kduncan]: who cares if they are PhDs or known writers? And it's true, BOTH sides should show CREDIBLE evidence. Like not from Michael Moore or the official Bush website." One word.. moorewatch. 'nuff said.

2005-04-23 [Balthizar]: i belive [kduncan] you were banned,i suggest you leave before she reports you for harrasment

2005-04-23 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Too late. And by the way Dilandau, this is just about why she WAS banned: Because she is a jerk that just won't SHUT UP and be courteous, trying to find everything that could possibly be wrong, and when I was trying to fix this wiki and forgave everyone for breaking the rules because I wasn't there, she kept asking me exactly where she flamed, which would make me break my own bloody rule that I just told everyone to follow right there!!!! So NOW you know why. -.-'

2005-04-23 [Dil*]: what do you mean? Quoting someone isn't flaming someone. If you're going to ban someone for being a jerk, at least find a statement that was jerk-like. You ignored all the mud throwing in the other posts yet, you ban someone who has done little or nothing. And to add insult to injury, you refuse to give us any clear reasons. The being a 'jerk' doesn't really cut it if you can't find any quotes that they were. Deleting all their posts is also low, that's like destroying all evidence of innocence.

2005-04-23 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *rolls eyes* I don't have to explain myself to the members or anyone else, I am doing you a FAVOR. Leave if you think that it is unfair. And I deleted all the posts after I banned her, and she should have been gone.

2005-04-23 [KimoN]: ur breaking ur own rules by insulting her and calling her a jerk. I think its funny how you guys get so defensive when someone opens their mouth around here and start to make sense, you get afraid...and you want to censor it from yourselfves. What kduncan was doing was expressing her opinion not trying to insult anyone. U guys are just as bad as book burners.

2005-04-23 [Ri'hala]: Oh jeez, comparing her to Nazi's? That's kinda low. And even IF she's afraid, it's her wiki. She can do whatever she wants with it.

2005-04-23 [Dil*]: Eh? When did I compare majere to a Nazi? The nazi's are not the ones that burned books, it was the communists in China (most recent).

2005-04-24 [Ri'hala]: Nazi's burned a hell of a lot of books....mainly the Jewish Bible (Isn't that the Koran? O.o;) But yeah, they burned bunches.

2005-04-24 [Maurer's conclusions]: No, that's the Torah. The Qur'an is the Muslim holy book. Nazis aren't the only ones; the Christian far right burns Iron Maiden records, Harry Potter books etc.

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yeah, practically all religions burn what they think is evil. *shrugs* And yes, I apologize... I did break my own rules. *goes red* No excuses, I am dreadfully sorry to everyone on the page and I sincerely hope I never do it again. And if that isn't a flame I don't know what is, KimoN. Yellow card.

2005-04-24 [Balthizar]: Ok,You can explaine yourself without insulting anyone, but you cannot give an opion and some one not be hurt

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: ((Also the only reason that I am leaving the comments made by [kduncan] after said person was banned is for evidence. They will be deleted after the Guards take care of it.))

2005-04-24 [Warpath]: I don't believe I've seen someone handle themselves better, in regards to [kduncan]. I have seen very vicious behavior from wiki members in here, and I am not inclined to believe that there is any malicious intent anywhere, other than to do exactly what this wiki was created for: expressing opinion. The problem is, you are going to run into differences of opinion when you open the floor like this about politics. The wiki owner should consider this before deleting comments, and try to understand that you can't ban people for a difference of opinion. What I have seen is not a flaming war on [kduncan]'s part, and I will not take any further action on it. The wiki owner is just going to 

2005-04-24 [Warpath]: have to understand what it means to open a discussion such as this, and to be able to take what you dish out.

2005-04-24 [Balthizar]: she will have to,but maybe everyone can be politer and word there opions better,both sides are at fault for flamming

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: ........and the Guard didn't understand my complaint. *sighs*

2005-04-24 [Balthizar]: Ylara,both you and [kduncan] are at fault...me thinks you over reacted

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: It doesn't matter if I overreacted in this case for the Guard, this still is my wiki and I banned someone so that means that they CAN'T COME BACK. I may actually let kduncan back because I probably did overreact. BUT this is still my wiki and I can ban and unban who I want and I EXPECT the Guards to back me up on that!!!!! *angry*

2005-04-24 [Ri'hala]: Ohhhhh The Torah. *slaps forehead* O.o; Thanks for the correction.

2005-04-24 [Ri'hala]: Jeez, IT'S HER WIKI!!!!! Even so she admitted she's wrong, and she's trying to fix it. LEAVE HER ALONE.

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Alright, frankly Warpath, please keep off this wiki because you have already taken care of what you think is the problem. So please leave.

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Thank you.

2005-04-24 [Cat0132]: hmm I'm gone for a week and I have no idea whats happening...all well...have to go work on a research paper anyways.

2005-04-24 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Just... two problems. A GUARD giving me... problems... and two girls getting angry... namely me and kduncan, who I have to ask back.

2005-04-24 [Cat0132]: Oh whatever, you own this wiki do whatever you want, I've decided I dont care for being fair anymore...you made it do what you want, if they dont like it they can leave, I mean seriously, make your own debate wiki if your for 'fairness' this isnt a debate wiki, its not meant to be 'fair'.

2005-04-24 [Dil*]: But you like to make it sound so. You say this is a fair wiki because both members aren't allowed to flame eachother. You promote fairness and openess, but don't follow through with it. If you don't want bush haters stating their opinions, just make it a solely bush supporters wiki, with no bush dislikers allowed. Shut your eyes, close your ears..whatever.

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: It is soley a bush supports wiki, hello look at its name. Lol...dont screw with me today I was up all night with delayed flights and lost luggage and I'm listening to The Streets.

2005-04-25 [Dil*]: But one comes off as a hypocrite if they don't inforce the rules they make. On both parties.

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: enforce not inforce. All well, you don't enforce the rules at your wiki and don't deny it, and do I have to say this again first of all she is the owner, she can do whatever she wants to, second shes sorry and is letting k-whatever back. Do you understand, or do you need an interpreter?

2005-04-25 [Dil*]: which wiki of mine? I have 15. I'll drop whatever, since kduncan is coming back??

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: Hey both of you calm down and put it to rest

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: the bush haters, I dont know if you own it or not. lol, I own to many wiki pages...and I have total and utter control lol...we wont remember that they are all mostly dead. If kwhatev wants to come back she can, she could anyway...there isnt anything YM could do other then deleting comments, but then all you paranoid people would complain of censorship.

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: Bal we're fine...obs we've had rough times but I respect Dil anywho...and I colored one of her drawings and she drew me one so we sorta own eachother anyways.

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: p.s. look at rule six...there it's a rule don't nag the owners.

2005-04-25 [Dil*]: the bush haters is very controlled. We even put up with comments like "F*** you, you hate america and freedom" comments, then we question them about stuff. Then fill the page with little incriminating facts. Then they leave when they can't argue back. 

2005-04-25 [Dil*]: Lol! I get along with tons of bush supporters outside of this wiki :P

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: woot high five dil! anywho...nah I've seen some nasty stuff happen at bush supporters, but I dont think you are the owner- hence not your fault.

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: I mean bush haters...haha

2005-04-25 [Dil*]: the only page I own of relevence of bush is reasons why we hate bush..that's all.

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: true,the reason i dont go to bush haters is because i dont really stand on either side,i support alot of bush's ideas,and i think he was a better choice then Kerry...really only because Kerry kept contridicting himself

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: same here...bush isnt great but better then kerry...but I still have to put up with him, damn my state.

2005-04-25 [tiragon]: Well, I only have one comment really, this isn't Ylar's wiki so to speak, it is elftowns, and the guards are the keepers of elftown, elftown belongs to Hedda, The guards are "employed" by Hedda to do their job.

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: Yes,But Ylara made this particular Wiki,and at the top on edit it says "Wiki page owner"and it will say her name,also,did you see what htey put on her house?

2005-04-25 [Cat0132]: the guards ain't perfect, I've been here for years I know, also they don't care about one wiki, or stupid little skirmishes, it's a higharchy here, and YM is in charge here, the guards chose not to get involved so it's YM's job.

2005-04-25 [tiragon]: yea Balth, i did, and personally, i agree with what they did. And if you want to argue with me further, message me, i'm not gonna bother filling up this wiki with sensible arguments because frankly, there aren't many so i guess they dont belong here

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: That wasnt right though,she ddi what she thought was right..whether it was or wasnt...he went to far,now shes hummilated because of it

2005-04-25 [tiragon]: so, you're saying that she shouldn't have to suffer the consequences for her actions? just because it's embarrassing?

2005-04-25 [tiragon]: besides, what she did wasnt right either

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: It wasnt,but it is her right as the owner of hte page ,and she should be able to rely on the gaurds to enforce her rules when Members dont listen,theres only so much she can do

2005-04-25 [tiragon]: not gonna argue furthur on here

2005-04-25 [Warpath]: If you are going to claim to be fair, then be fair. Otherwise, you are calling on the services of someone who does not feel you are being fair, and therefore will not help you. The owner should make this wiki private and by invite only, so she can add and remove people at her leisure, thus being able to mete out her own justice.

2005-04-25 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Interesting, and if I have further problems then yes, I will make this a private wiki... I already asked you to leave Warpath, I know you don't HAVE to leave but I would prefer that you not comment on this page. I wouldn't mind if you wouldn't write in bold print. The comment at my house was removed by the Mayor Hedda and I'm sending out an offer to come back to [kduncan], so I'm fine with the situation and I believe that I have solved it to everyone else's satisfaction... as far as reasonable anyway.

2005-04-25 [Ri'hala]: Same here. War is getting slightly irritating, since he's already proved his point like, six times...

2005-04-25 [kduncan]: Sorry, despite the apology from Ylaraniala, I find the members of this wiki to be argumentive, uniformed, and close-minded. My posts were censored and deleted, my challenges to members here to prove their "facts" with resources to back them up went unheeded.. though they still tried to argue that they were "right" in their opinions. You claim to invite debate, but when a person gives you a real debate.. you cut them out by banning them and deleting their posts. Quite frankly, a group that won't even do their own friggin reasearch to back up their doesn't deserve a quality discussion on my part. And Ri'hala.. look at you.. despite the wiki owner's problems.. you're still flaming.

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: alright hows this,bring it on Kduncan,tell me one thing that Bush has lied about?he has done everything he said he would do,whether good or bad.

2005-04-25 [Rennie]: Please guys...the guards don't want to hear anymore drama coming from this page. There will be no more 'bring it on' and if this wiki was not meant to be of an opinionated sort, then it should maybe be pronounced in the rules? How the wiki is run is completely up to the owner, who did what she thought was necessary to contain her wiki. Let's leave it at that, eh? ~Elftown Guards.

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: alrighty then*sighs*Oh well,so uh Ylara..if we cant debate...what are we to do then?

2005-04-25 [Ylaraniala Majere]: I don't know *bewildered* I have no idea where that came from... I say specifically in the rules now that this is meant to be a debating wiki, just not a FLAMING wiki....

2005-04-25 [Balthizar]: well..you have a space made for debating...maybe you should point out that there is where all the debating is held and if you dont want feelings hurt dont go there?

2005-04-25 [Ylaraniala Majere]: I guess... *sighs*

2005-04-25 [Rennie]: That works perfectly Ylaraniala...just so long as it is spelled out specifically and peaceably :)

2005-04-25 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Okay ^_^

2005-04-25 [Doormat]: Ahh...I was just passing by here again...watching the drama unfold...the amount of stuff that has been going on...brings tears of laughter to my eyes...anywho, let me teach you a term people...it's good game (gg for short) it's a sign that you've beaten the person, but in a polite kind of way, dating back to starcraft, when you'd lose, you wouldn't swear like a sailor, a last round of 'gg's would be passed out and it would be over. Why can't it be like that anymore?

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: wait what diablo? I'm not a gamer no freaking idea what your talking about. Whatever, thanks Erinbabe, finally a guard who knows what they are doing, Ylar's the owner she does what she wants, end of story. How many times do I have to say that?

2005-04-26 [Doormat]: It's a concept...When you're done you're done...might as well be polite about it (by the way it's a 'parallel' to what's been going on here)

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: Ok...could have just said that instead of displaying random gaming knowledge....hey maybe it'll be a jeopardy question someday (and I'm being serious)

2005-04-26 [Dil*]: Join this...for debating: BUSH HATERS VS BUSH SUPPORTERS, It solves the problem

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: yeah thats what I was telling people to do make a debate wiki or whatever, but whose the moderator/owner of that wiki page?

2005-04-26 [Balthizar]: theres already one of those if poeple would read the page Bush Supporters Association Discussions

2005-04-26 [Dil*]: yes, but remember kduncan left in disgust. I doubt she would want to go there either. And a couple of people want to debate with kduncan..sooo the page.

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: dil who mods the one you posted above?

2005-04-26 [Dil*]: me :P

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: oh...well it could be worse I guess lol

2005-04-26 [Dil*]: no, unless it's a comment like "F you You F'ing F'er" Then I probably won't delete it :P

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: no I mean I'd rather it be someone from neither side, but then again they don't care and dont want to bother, not that I'm going there anyways. Look its over, Bush won, he's not going to be impeached, and deff not taken out of office, he's not running again cause he can't, so whatever, we didn't all die the last 4 years we aren't going to die these next 4 years.

2005-04-26 [Dil*]: and, there's jeb bush.

2005-04-26 [Cat0132]: so....he doesnt seem like he wants to be president at all...haha he cracks me up, he looks so funny :P

2005-04-26 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yeah, he's happy as Governor of Florida... and eh, go ahead and have your wiki Dilandau, and good luck with it. I agree with Eldheler though, it's easier to debate when the owner is not on either side, it's tough to be fair when you want to win.

2005-04-26 [RaineDrop]: anyone care to join bush haters vs bush supporters ? i'm sorta the only bush supporter there, and i feel lonely. anyone who feels they can ADD to the debate with useful facts is free to join.

2005-04-27 [Lioness123]: I don't think I know enough of whats going on with Bush to join. I don't have time to watch the news anymore..

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Ouch, that stinks!! I always try and watch the news pretty often, particularly Fox but some other ones too. My dad refuses to watch the liberals talk but it makes me be able to understand better... and also know where they're coming from instead of getting quotes from networks that I didn't watch before.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: I was unaware that there were any liberal TV news stations in the US.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: *laughs* Almost every single one of the news stations are liberal. Some slightly, most extremely. Fox is admittedly a little conservative, although the people who report the news are all over the map - moderates, liberals, conservatives, everything... it's pretty amazing.

2005-04-27 [RaineDrop]: i watch Fox News, and MSNBC....i like Fox News for it's tendancy to lean towards to conservative view points. i see enough Liberal garbage else where

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Eh, yeah, it's amazing how they twist good things into bad ones and always take a negative view. And isn't MSNBC liberal too? *puzzled*

2005-04-27 [RaineDrop]: it is...but, MSNBC is the only liberal biased network i will watch...but you also must be aware that Ann Couler worked for that network when it first started

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Hahaha. Fox a little conservative? They have hosts who encourage people to hate the French. How can you trust these people to give you true and unbiased news?

2005-04-27 [RaineDrop]: no worse that the liberal biased news...you just happen to hate conservatives, so have to complain everywhere [Maurer's conclusions]...why not go chat with your "green party" pals and stay out of places you are not welcom? and what's wrong with hating the french? they are losers anyways., litterally...they couldn't win a conflict if the other side accidentally blew up haf their own men

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: You disgust me RaineDrop. Most of the people on this page seem to be somewhat tolerant and polite, but you are the epitome of xenophobia, rudeness and closemindedness. When did I ever say I disliked conservatives? I dislike Fox because it is a station that is far more biased than most other news stations. The French aren't losers, simply because they prefer diplomacy and tact to blunt aggression (Bush's policy). In fact, they were once a great military power, and helped the US become independent.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yeah, he's right RaineDrop... and also he IS allowed by Rule #4. Please don't flame the French, Ertarkano, OR liberals. (Rule #1). Yellow card, which means next time you break the rules I have to ban you. (And yes, I know that the Elftown Guards said I can't actually ban anyone by the normal meaning, but I rediscribed what it meant when I use it up there) I really don't want to lose anybody else here but I have to keep civility in my wiki... also Ertarkano, I know you were provoked, but please don't flame anyone anyway. Yellow card for you too.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: what ever happened to a "fair and unbiased media"? i dont want ANYONE's viewpoint involved in my news... even if i share their view. i want unbiased FACTS, i dont want to know what you think of the facts. what happened to that? i mean other than one anchor looking at the other and saying "what a horiffic act." after a multiple murder, i dont want oppinions. if i wanted oppinions or iffy facts id get my news from The National Inquirer. lol. my solution? i watch the local news, and maybe the regular broadcast station national news. maybe. most of the time its just local news, and just long enough to get the weather.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Alright, now that that's taken care of.. I dislike the French too because they didn't keep up their part of the bargain in keeping Hussien in line. The French gave him a rule and he broke it, then they gave another rule and he broke it, and another one and he broke it again. The French agreed to make certain that Hussien followed the rules that the UN agreed on and they didn't do anything when Saddam stomped all over them. And THAT is why I really dislike the French. And frankly Ertarkano... I've watched the other news stations, the ones shown as liberal, and made sure that they were indeed putting a spin on things. Trust me, they are. I watched three or four stations after the Presidential

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Sorry, but could you point out what I flamed?

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Debates, and Fox had a little spin toward Bush, though quite a few of the people on there still gave him a hard time along with Kerry. The liberal stations ALL had the same spin: "After that mistake of Bush's, what do you think of his side?" kind of thing. It was much worse spin on the liberal stations than on Fox. ((and sure, give me a moment))

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Its impossible for any TV station to be without bias, or any news network for that matter. All I was trying to do is point out that stations (and I used FOX as an example because it is the most controversial) are biased.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: "19:24:56 Ertarkano: You disgust me RaineDrop. [...] you are the epitome of xenophobia, rudeness and closemindedness." That's the flame.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Simply because the French government adopts a 'weak' position on Iraq is no reason to insult and hate the French. I hate Bush's administration, but I don't hate all Americans.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Russia and French called for weakening of the sanctions, because the sanctions killed over one million Iraqis.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: why is it impossible for them to be without bias? ive never heard anyone accuse the old news reporters etc of bias... ive never heard anyone say "wow, that walter chronkite is some liberal!

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: UNICEF estimated about 500,000 children died due to sanctions during 1991 to 1999http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/418625.stm.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Experts believed that humanitarian aid allocated by UN was not enough to meet the requirement of 22 million Iraqis (population at that time) resulting in malnutrition in population specially among children.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: The sanctions were so strict that many high ranking UN officials resigned, and many of them called it genocide.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Objectivity is impossible to attain, because we as humans are subjective. Emotion, perception and language are some of the things that get in the way of objectivity.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Well actually, part of the reason that it wasn't enough for the Iraqis to live was because of Hussien stealing the money that was supposed to go to his people. The aid that was given probably would have been enough otherwise... and perhaps the sanctions WERE awful, I would not know, I did not research that specific far enough to give my opinion.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: yes, it is hard not to put a litle bit of spin on things you talk about, but its not impossible. i can state facts without letting my personal views show through. why is it people who have been through a Journalism course cant?

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Well that is debatable, but the point is that the sanctions harmed innocent Iraqis more than Hussein's government. Perhaps the French felt compassion for the dying Iraqi children, and pushed for the sanctions to be eased, earning them the label of 'losers'.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: K hanhepi I'm getting quite philosophical here so be prepared. Give me an example of a fact that you could state that would be completely objective.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: ((the Oil For Food info from http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040321-101405-2593r.htm and can produce more if necessary))

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: The problem is that "perhaps"es matter on your opinion of the people, not on true facts. It can be put the same way from our side, like so: "Perhaps the French were being bribed and profiting by the Oil For Food program, so wanted to increase the amount of oil that went out of Iraq". Perhapses are very interesting but unfortunately don't prove anything.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Yes, but there is no excuse to say that one hates all french people and calls them losers simply because (if this happened there is still some doubt) the French government and French companies were paid off.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: ert: fact: George W. Bush is the son of George H. W. Bush and Barbra Bush. see, a fact, with no political spin.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: But how do you know they even exist? How do you know you even exist? Perhaps you are just a brain in a jar, with perceptions being fed into you.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yes, that is without political spin, but it isn't the kind of thing you can spin ON.. like say "Today President Bush signed the Jump Start bill, the program that is supposed to help children in public schools get better grades" it's really easy to put something like "The program that WILL" or "The program that supposedly" in there.. and frankly I don't ever call people losers. They aren't. They just aren't that strong as a people in fighting conditions, in my mind.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: ok. i see. sort of the "if you leave a room full of people, are the people really still there" kind of thing. i know i exsist because i think i exsist. "i think, therefor i am" :P

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: ylar: a way to say that with little or no bias would be to use "the program designed to", which does not imply that it will or will not work. merely states its intended purpose

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: K let's get off of the philosophical objectivism/subjectivism/brain in a jar stuff, and talk about spin. About the losers, I was referring to RaineDrop. As for fighting conditions, wouldn't the Free French qualify as good fighters?

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: I do not know about those people, would you explain what they are?

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: And also hanhepi, it just shows how very easy it is to have spin... in fact, how very HARD it is to NOT have spin in a news program.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: right, it is HARD, but not impossible. and there was a time in this country where reporters tryed hard to make sure their stories were unbiased. of course, there was a time in this country when school was for learning too, instead os a place to make you feel good about yourself.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Actually school normally makes people feel BAD... getting beaten and ridiculed unless you try to fit in really well isn't exactly the best thing for morale... there's a big reason why I'm homeschooled. Simply put, it's SAFER. And yeah, I wish reporters cared as much as they used to about being true to the facts too...

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Free French were French resistance fighters who resisted the Vichy-France and the German occupied france.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Then most likely they are not the same. However in my opinion, the French as a whole are not good fighters, on the contrary they seem to want to avoid fighting as much as possible, to the point of being dangerously close to letting a war happen, with the other side having a huge advantage.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Have you ever considered the fact that many European countries are war-weary, and prefer to rely on diplomacy? Some European countries have war records that make the US's look like nothing.

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Yes, of course they do. Try diplomacy first but frankly, if they don't listen to diplomacy you have to do SOMETHING or there will be a huge problem.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Such as?

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Such as people getting nuclear weapons, or poisonous gas that can kill entire towns, or missiles, etc.

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: Ones like the US, UK, France and Russia have?

2005-04-27 [Ylaraniala Majere]: Actually I'm pretty sure that the US do not have gas, but other than that yes; you don't want people who are shown as EXTREMELY dangerous, like Germany used to be, to have that kind of weapon.

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: ylar: by the school comment i made i was refering to them taking "dodgeball" out of school, because it hurts to get picked last for a team and to get beaned by one of those balls, and some school districts are baring the teachers from useing red pens to grade papers, because its "too harsh a color" and it might damage the kid's self esteme. ive only been out of school for 7 years. i was never beaten up for being different. a guy put a switchblade to my throat, but backed down when i threatened to take it from him and scalp him with it. never had any trouble at all with anyone after standing up to that little jock. :D but it is alot safer to be homeschooled. and you will get a better

2005-04-27 [Maurer's conclusions]: But don't you think that diplomacy can stop the production of these, whereas war will simply increase the production and use of them?

2005-04-27 [hanhepi]: education than if you attended a public school. and you can still learn the joy of getting hit in the head with a red kickball ball. and your teacher can use red pen to grade you. a question i always had about homeschooling: when mom is the teacher, can mom still help you with your homework?